John’s Jesus Didn’t Pre-Exist. The Word Did. (w/ Dustin Smith)

Dustin Smith They don't get it. I joke with the students. That's why they're called the duh-ciples. They just don't get it sometimes. Okay? You can steal that.

Dan McClellan Hey, everybody. I'm Dan McClellan. And

Dan Beecher I'm Dan Beecher.

Dan McClellan And this is Data Over Dogma, where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion, and we combat the spread of misinformation about the same. And in a shocking twist of events, we've got a good one for y'all today.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan So we-

Dan Beecher Who's, who's ever heard of that?

Dan McClellan We, uh, we have a guest with us today. This is a friend of mine named Dustin Smith. Welcome to Data Over Dogma, Dustin. Thank you for being here.

Dustin Smith Hey, thanks for having me. Appreciate it.

Dan McClellan We, we really appreciate your time. And, uh, Dustin is Scholar of New Testament at Spartanburg Methodist College in, uh, South Carolina, in probably Spartanburg, South Ca- yeah, Spartanburg, uh, c- South Carolina. And, uh, Dustin is also the host of the Biblical Unitarian podcast, which, uh, as we discussed in our pregame, our, uh, our exclusive content that we do for members of our Patreon, um, was, uh, featured an episode discussing a straw poll I took at a conference that Dustin and I, uh, attended together in Rome. So, uh, good times. If you wanna hear about that story, you can go over to Patreon and check that

Dustin Smith out.

Dan Beecher Yeah. Yeah. Dan, Dan, uh, really, uh, raked the muck over there in Rome. So you guys, you- you'll wanna hear that story, uh- ... 'cause that was, that was actually a really fun one.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And, um, I was, I was gonna say, I, I should bring up this interesting little fact. Um, Unitarianism is, is a fascinating tradition. Uh, when I was doing research for a, a paper, I've got a couple papers on this, actually. Uh, in fact, the Oxford Research Encyclopedia of Religion, I have the entry on monotheism in that, and I discuss this, uh, in there as well. When dictionaries first started including entries for the word monotheism, uh, they started in the early 1700s. And, uh, between the early 1700s and Webster's in 1828, every last dictionary that had an entry for the word monotheism defined it as the doctrine of the Unitarians. And the idea that it means belief in only one God is not in any dictionary until 1828 when they, I guess they were just like, "We're done with the Unitarian thing. It's time to move on." Uh, "We're, we're doing this now."

Dan Beecher And to be clear, because I'm the guy that has to, like, translate for us, for us less in-the-know folks-

Dan McClellan What does that mean?

Dan Beecher ... Unitarianism in this case does not mean- ... Unitarian Universalism. Like, it's not just the nice people who, uh, you know, who won't say the name of Jesus when they're doing their Christmas hymns or whatever. It's, uh, it, univer- uni- Unitarianis- or, oh, I don't know.

Dan McClellan Why don't we let, why don't we let the host of the Biblical Unitarian podcast explain-

Dan Beecher Yes

Dan McClellan ... to us what the word-

Dan Beecher Thank you

Dan McClellan ... that we can't pronounce actually means.

Dan Beecher That's exactly it.

Dustin Smith Sure. Yeah. So Unitarianism is just the belief that the God of Israel is only one person, the Father alone, in the same way that you, Dan, are only one person, and you, Dan, you're only one person, and I'm only one person. So the idea is that the, the early Christians, uh, and, uh, the writers of the Hebrew Bible understood the God of Israel to be the Father alone.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dustin Smith In contrast deliberately to Trinitarianism, which teaches that the God of Israel is actually three persons.

Dan McClellan So when Jesus, uh, in John 17:3 refers to God the Father as the only true God, and then His Son, that being the other person, you take that seriously, in other words?

Dustin Smith Yes. Jesus- The historical Jesus was a Unitarian. He was not a Trinitarian.

Dan Beecher How dare you. How dare you, sir.

Dan McClellan But, uh-

Dan Beecher Heresy. Here- We s- we're start- we're not even five minutes into the show- ... and we're already heretics.

Dan McClellan Well, we, we, yeah, that's, uh, we been know. That's something that, uh- ... we, we're not pleading those charges. Um-

Dustin Smith No. No

Dan McClellan ... but, uh, Dustin and I participated in a conference held in Rome this last, was it, was it June? June. It was only in June-

Dustin Smith Yeah

Dan McClellan ... that we were there? Good grief. It seems like a lifetime ago. Um, but, uh, and, and this conference was on Christology. And, uh, I was, I was at, uh, uh, the same conference the year before when it was held up in Milan. And, uh, a friend of mine was like, "Yeah, I'm gonna be running the next one." And I was like, "I need to be there." And, uh, had a great time. But, uh, w- Dustin talked a bit about wisdom Christology, and we're here to talk about a book that Dustin published. Uh, it's from 2024, Wisdom Christology in the Gospel of John, uh, a wonderful discussion published by Wipf and Stock on what exactly wisdom Christology is and why it seems to pervade every single chapter of, uh, the Gospel of John. And, uh, I'm excited to talk about this because Christology has been, long been one of the, one of my main research interests. I, I talk a lot about conceptualizations of deity, of scripture, of religious identity, but Christology is a big part of this. Uh, can you just give us a, um, 30,000-foot view on what wisdom Christology is and, and maybe how it differs from what other people who have ever heard the word Christology might understand by the word?

Dan Beecher I was gonna say, I'm gonna take you up to- ... the 55,000-foot view because- ... we're gonna need to start with what Christology is, period. Because, well, we, we, not all of us have-

Dan McClellan Fair enough. Fair enough

Dan Beecher ... advanced degrees in all of this stuff.

Dan McClellan Yes. Let's l- let's lay our scene in a broader sense.

Dustin Smith Sure. Sure. So Christology generally is just the ology of Christ. It's just the stud- the study of the person of Christ, and wisdom Christology is the ways in which the New Testament authors would portray the person of Christ by applying- ... the roles and the traits and the descriptions and the characteristics of God's wisdom to the man, Jesus Christ.

Dan Beecher So not just, uh, one of the things that I've, I've found interesting about your book is that we're not just talking about he ha- he, like Jesus was wise. That's, that, that, that's not, that's not what we're... I mean, it's maybe a part of it, but, but this goes much bigger than just Jesus was a wise guy that God imbued with wisdom. Wisdom-

Dustin Smith It's a bit more sophisticated than that

Dan Beecher ... wisdom has a much bigger, uh, a much bigger meaning in this case. So maybe, y- I mean, your book starts with talking about wisdom and, uh, and sort of in the Hebrew Bible, the traditions that, uh, of, of wisdom. Why don't you start us there and, and launch us into, uh, what we me- what we mean when we're talking about wisdom and, and personified wisdom, that sort of stuff?

Dustin Smith Yeah. So this actually is kind of what got me started onto taking this topic seriously. I had an assignment, I don't know, 10 or 11 years ago, where I had to translate through the Book of Proverbs, and in Proverbs 1 through 9, you have this figure that keeps appearing, which is God's wisdom, and God's wisdom is just his wise attribute, the way that God wisely interacts with his creation, and oftentimes, God's wisdom is equated with his commandments or his understanding or his instructions. Uh, but in Proverbs 1 through 9, God's wisdom, in order to get the readers to take God's wisdom seriously, she undergoes personification, and because the Hebrew noun for wisdom, which is chokhmah, is grammatically feminine, wisdom gets personified as a female figure. And the same thing happens, uh, with, uh, the Greek noun, sophia, which is also grammatically feminine. And so you've got Woman Wisdom or Lady Wisdom, and she's going around in Proverbs chapter 1, and she acts as this prophetess, and she's like, "Hey, turn at my reproof. Listen to me, and if you don't do this, bad things are gonna happen," just like all the Hebrew Bible prophets do. Uh, then in chapter 3, she's a tree of life, and she offers life, and she has glory, and she says, "Come and embrace me." Um, and then in chapter 8, she's this preexistent, we're not exactly sure, is she an architect? Is she a child? Is she just this helper?

Dan Beecher Mm.

Dustin Smith And then in chapter 9, she's a home builder that provides bread and wine to those who come in and participate of her meal, which is just a way of saying embracing all of her wise teachings, and she promises life. And that's really interesting, but then what happened was when I got to the end of the Book of Proverbs, in chapter 31, which is the passage that men typically don't read, uh, because it's the passage about the excellent wife-

Dan Beecher Mm

Dustin Smith ... you know, the virtuous woman. So in chapter 31 verses 10 through 31, it's the last section, which seems to be the only section in Proverbs that, at least originally, was deliberately written to women, okay? And in that passage, what I noticed in reading, like, all these different characteristics of this, this ideal, virtuous woman, this noteworthy wife, is that there are things that are said about her that were formerly said about God's wisdom, and I was like, "That looks familiar. That looks familiar. That looks familiar." And after a while, I was like, "Well, I found like 11 different things here that are said about this ideal wife that were formerly said about preexistent, heavenly, personified wisdom." And I thought, "Well, that's really interesting. What's going on here?" We've got this preexistent, personified attribute of God that has, uh, become embodied into this actual human woman, but no one thinks that this woman has preexisted her birth or that she is the creator or that she's a member of the triune Godhead. She just is embodying God's wise teachings in a real way. And then I went to the commentaries, and I found out that people have known about this for a long time, and I was like, "Oh, well, I'm not really that bright. I just-" "... I'm, I'm just just-"

Dan McClellan That always takes the wind out of my sails when I'm like, "I came up with the coolest idea ever." And then it's like, "No, they've published on that for longer than the United States has been a country." It's like, "Gah."

Dustin Smith Yeah. Yeah. And so, so that was interesting. I, I, I found that the idea that this preexistent personification can become embodied into actual human beings is already there as a clear teaching in the Hebrew Bible, okay? And so when we see the early Christians that are taking these things about God's wisdom or about God's word, which basically, uh, wisdom and word, by the time you get to the first century, are basically overlapping synonymous categories, okay? Uh, when they start to take those things about wisdom and word, and they start to say, "Well, uh, wisdom became flesh," or, "The word became flesh," and they start to identify Jesus by attributing to him roles and the traits and the characteristics and descriptions of wisdom and word to this human, Jesus of Nazareth, uh, there's actually continuity with what was going on there in Judaism. And so what I demonstrate in chapter two of the book is that it just kind of starts in Proverbs, but you can also see it in Ben Sira-

Dan Beecher Mm

Dustin Smith ... and you can also see it in the Dead Sea Scrolls, in a document called the Genesis Apocryphon, and you can also see it in the first century with Philo of Alexandria, who has four successive women, uh, Sarah, Rebecca, Leah, and Zipporah, who are identified as God's wisdom. And so what the early Christians are doing with Jesus is actually in continuity with Judaism. They're not something that's, saying something that's been influenced by evil Greek philosophy or anything like that. Um, but it, what was interesting, though, is that with these Jewish portrayals, they're basically saying, "This is where you're gonna find God's wisdom. You're gonna find God's wisdom in this, these virtuous people and these virtuous wives," or in the case of Ben Sira, uh, in this high priest. And so the early Christians are saying, "Well, actually, God's wisdom is climatically gonna be found in the person of Jesus Christ." But in doing so, they're not saying that Jesus consciously preexisted his birth. He is just the embodiment of a personification. It's the word that was in the beginning with God. It wasn't the Son that was in the beginning with God.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dustin Smith And if the word or wisdom, if they're just personifications, then it changes the way that we have the conversation- about the topic of pre-existence when it comes to the Gospel of John.

Dan McClellan Well, I, I think, um, I wanna backtrack just a little bit 'cause you, you mentioned, uh, wisdom, hokhma, Sophia, but you've also got the Word, the Logos. Uh, and, and there are actually a, a handful of divine attributes that are personified in one form or another going on in Second Temple Judaism. And so, uh, you, you also have the ruach, the spirits, uh, the pneuma. That, that's another one that kind of stays distinct in, in a lot of respects. And then in later Judaism, you have the Shekhinah and, and things like that. So this is something that's quite common in Second Temple period Judaism, to understand these attributes of God to be kind of semi-independent, kind of communicable, personified, uh, features of God. And, and I think you see in... What, one of the things that I think Philo is, is trying to do is kind of, uh, consolidate a lot of these things, and kind of harmonize, uh, w- the received tradition, which includes identifying wisdom as the Logos, and that ha- that is important for your discussion of the Logos hymn in, in John 1. Can you talk a little bit about some of the points of contact that you found in the, the prologue to the Gospel of John, the famous, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God," uh, ke theos en o logos, uh, and, and how that plays into why the author of the Gospel of John seems to be presenting the foundation of their Christology in, in wisdom terms, even though the word doesn't occur in there?

Dustin Smith Yeah. It's, it's a good question, and anyone that is picking through commentaries on the first chapter of the Gospel of John, they're gonna notice that the scholars identify these parallels between what is said about the Word in the prologue, which is the first 18 verses of the Gospel of John, and things that were formally said about God's wisdom in Jewish wisdom literature. And that has become now the dominant category of what has actually influenced the Gospel of John. I know there's some debate on that still, but, uh, at least that's kind of currently where the consensus is. And so just taking things like, "In the beginning was the Word," well, that was already being said about God's wisdom because in, uh, Proverbs Chapter 8, Verses 22 through 23, uh, personified wisdom says in the first person that she was there, and actually in the Septuagint of Proverbs 8, Verse 23, it says that she was there en arche, there in the beginning, the very same phrase that we have there in John 1:1, which also is a quote from Genesis Chapter 1, Verse 1. Uh, so wisdom was there in the beginning. Uh, she was-

Dan McClellan So the, the... You're... Uh, sorry to interrupt. The, the Septuagint translator, you're thinking, is, is quoting the Septuagint translation of Genesis 1:1 to kind of draw out that illusion?

Dustin Smith Yeah, and that's a good point- Okay ... because what we see in the first five verses of the prologue are a lot of these themes. We have God. We have God creating in the beginning. We have God creating with His Word. We have life. We have light. We have light separating darkness, and we have, uh, light interacting with human beings. All of those themes are present in Genesis Chapter 1, okay? Yeah. So on top of the fact that we have all those themes that are resonating there, we have that initial phrase, "In the beginning," which is there in the Septuagint of Genesis Chapter 1. But Genesis Chapter 1 is not the only passage that the author of the prologue is indebted to. He's also indebted to Proverbs Chapter 8, where you have personified wisdom that was there in the beginning with God. She was there beside Him. Like, personified wisdom says this in Proverbs Chapter 8, Verse 30. She says, "I was beside Him. I was with Him."

Dan McClellan Okay. I was, I was looking at Verse 22, looking in the Greek, but no, you've got Verse 30. Yeah.

Dustin Smith Yes. Parathro. Yeah. Yeah, so, so in Proverbs 8, uh, 23, you have the phrase en arche there in the Septuagint.

Dan McClellan Yep.

Dustin Smith Yeah.

Dan McClellan Uh, I thought Yep. Very cool. Yeah. I, I hadn't picked up on that before. I don't think I've looked at the Greek of, of, uh, the wisdom stuff in Proverbs 8.

Dustin Smith I'm being fact-checked here. That's all right. Yeah. So what I didn't- You

Dan Beecher wrote the book, Dan. You don't need to question it that much. Let's not get too granular here.

Dan McClellan Well, I, uh, I think it's an interesting insight that I hadn't-

Dan Beecher Yeah, yeah ...

Dan McClellan I hadn't picked up on before.

Dan Beecher Yeah, totally.

Dustin Smith Yeah. And so basically throughout the prologue, I have found 20 different things that are being said about the Word that were already being said about God's wisdom. So of course, God's Word is in the beginning. God's Word was with God.

Dan McClellan Uh,

Dustin Smith God's Word fully expresses God. Uh, God's Word is being personified. Uh, in John Chapter 1, Verse 3, it says, "All things were made through the Word," not by the Word, by the way. Uh, God is the creator, but God creates through His Word, and th- that's already there in, of course, in Genesis Chapter 1. It's there in Psalm 33, Verse 6. Uh, but there, even in the Hebrew Bible, in Psalm 104, Verse 24, you know, Adonai creates all things with His wisdom, and it's also there in Proverbs 3:19, where, you know, Adonai with wisdom made the heavens with understanding, with His knowledge. And so the idea of, of the God of Israel creating with His Word and with His wisdom, both of those things are already being said there in the Hebrew Bible. The key thing there is that the, the Gospel of John's not innovating. It's not saying anything new. It's actually in continuity with, uh, the Hebrew Bible and showing that this portrayal of Jesus is at least, uh, not something completely new. It's, it's something that at least they're trying to connect with the expectations that are already there, uh, in the Hebrew Bible. Um, and that, the key thing that I've found that when it comes to Verse 14, where the Word becomes flesh, tabernacles among us, we beheld His glory, the glory of a unique son, full of grace and truth. Like, nearly everything in that line was already being said about God's wisdom because God's wisdom came down out of heaven and became flesh in Proverbs Chapter 31, in Ben Sira, in the Dead Sea Scrolls, and in Philo. All right? Tabernacling among us, that's there in Sirach Chapter 24. Uh, beholding the glory, uh, wisdom, uh, offers glory in Proverbs Chapter 3 and in Proverbs Chapter 8. Um, you know, she's described as unique in Wisdom of Solomon Chapter 7. She offers grace and truth. All those things are there in Proverbs. Uh, so the point is, like, anyone who is reading the prologue that- has all of this context available to them and is gonna see what the author is trying to do. The author is taking things that were formerly said about God's wisdom and applying that to Jesus. And the key thing also is that by the time the Gospel of John was written, the early Christians have already been doing this for some time.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dustin Smith You can see this in Matthew and Luke. You can see it in Q. You can see it, uh, in Paul. Um, I gave my presentation at the conference where I talked about Colossians.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dustin Smith Where it happens, it's also there in Hebrews 1. The Gospel of John is just, like, taking this Christology that's already been around for two generations, and he's just turning it all the way up to maximum volume, and he's putting it on every single one of the chapters in the Gospel of John.

Dan McClellan Now, if I recall, when we were in Rome, we discussed the possibility of, uh, the author of the Gospel of John having read Philo, and you suggest that, that they probably were not reading Philo. Uh, do I recall that correctly?

Dustin Smith Yeah, I, I don't think that, uh, the Gospel of John is demonstrating, uh, his, at least the influence, uh, of Philo. Although, I do think that the things of Philo are, are out there.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dustin Smith Um, but I don't see the direct lines of connection just... I think what has actually influenced him are these various Jewish portrayals of God's wisdom being personified.

Dan McClellan Okay. So the, the, the logos theology that we see pretty clearly in Philo, you're, you're suggesting is, has kind of been packaged with wisdom ideas, and that's, that's the, the point of contact with the author of the Gospel of John?

Dustin Smith Yeah. So we already have that in some of this Jewish literature.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dustin Smith So like in Proverbs 1, uh, personified wisdom says that, you know, "Words are coming out of my mouth."

Dan McClellan Okay. Okay?

Dustin Smith So wisdom and word are closely related. And, uh, in Sirach chapter 24, uh, God's wisdom, again, comes out of the Most High's mouth. And so there's already that close relation-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dustin Smith ... before Philo was even born. So I think Philo takes that, and he runs with it.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dustin Smith But Philo, I don't think, uh, begins it. I think

Dan McClellan he's

Dustin Smith drawing it.

Dan McClellan He's not the originator of that idea.

Dustin Smith Right. Right.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Yeah. And so they're, they're already, they've already become integrated within, uh, Jewish theology by this time period.

Dustin Smith Right. Yeah.

Dan McClellan Okay. Is, is there a reason then that, that the author of the Gospel of John chooses to focus on logos instead of Sophia?

Dustin Smith I think it's be- Yeah, that's, and that's a great question. Um, but I think because in the Gospel of John, the portrayal of Jesus is the one that is speaking the words of God, and he's being portrayed as this figure from Deuteronomy 18:15-18, um, where the God of Israel says that, "I'm gonna raise up this prophet like Moses from among your countrymen."

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dustin Smith "And I'm gonna put my words into his mouth, and he's gonna speak all the things that I say, and you need to listen to him. And if you don't listen to him, I'm gonna hold you to account." And so in the Gospel of John, Jesus is portrayed as this prophet like Moses, that the God of Israel has put his own words into this mouth, and to portray Jesus as the spokesperson, the spokesman for God, who is constant in the Gospel of John saying, "You need to listen to my words, but my words, they, they don't belong to me."

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dustin Smith "They belong to the one who sent me." You know, they, they don't originate with Jesus. He's just the agent of God who speaks authoritatively on God's behalf. Portraying Jesus as the embodiment of the Word is better for that Christological portrayal than to say he's the embodiment of God's wisdom. But it's not really an either/or because really both of them-

Dan McClellan Yeah, they're both-

Dustin Smith ... are overlapping

Dan McClellan ... the same thing, yeah. Yeah. One, one of the things I found interesting in the book, and actually kind of resonates with some of the work I've done on concepts of the self and, and loci of agency and cognition and authority and stuff like that, uh, you, you t- you emphasize the idea that the logos... or that, that Jesus is not consciously the logos. Jesus is not like, "I can remember all the way back to creation." Uh, thi- this is not suddenly the, this logos is now, "I've put on my skin suit," but, uh, the logos possessing, indwelling, somehow, um, uh, authorizing the, the, the person of Jesus to, to be the, the spokesperson for God. And, and I'm curious if you've done any work on, uh, the concepts of, of the self and, and spirit possession and that kind of stuff 'cause we see r- related ideas in the Dead Sea Scrolls, uh, in, in a lot of literature from this time period that s- this is not out of step really with ideas from that time period about, about spirit possession and, and things like that. Do you relate this idea to that, or do you think there's something else going on where when Jesus is like, "Oh, yeah, I got the logos in me"?

Dustin Smith I, I do actually relate to this, and this is some of the feedback that I've received, uh, after having, uh, published this book-

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm

Dustin Smith ... is that I've been able to kind of refine some of the things. And I think one of the things that I've actually changed my mind on, uh, yes, I was wrong on this, okay? Uh, I, I, I do actually think that in John 1:14 where the Word becomes flesh, I actually think that that took place at the baptism. I think it's at-

Dan McClellan Okay

Dustin Smith ... that's the time when the spir- at least all four Gospels, they portray the beginning of the ministry of Jesus at this baptism where-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dustin Smith ... the Spirit comes upon Jesus, and he's empowered for his role as Messiah. But he's also coronated publicly-

Dan McClellan Right

Dustin Smith ... for his role as the Jewish Messiah.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dustin Smith And of course, in Matthew, Mark, and Luke, the voice from heaven echoing Psalm 2:7-

Dan McClellan Right

Dustin Smith ... "You are my son." Um, but then in, in John's gospel, it's, it's John the Baptist saying, you know, like, "This is the Son of God right there." Uh, and, uh, you already see that in John 1:14 where, uh, the Word becomes flesh, and what do we find? The unique one of the Father, you know. You have that, th- the first time you get the Son of God language there is at this particular point. So I think that from the perspective of the Gospel of John, at the baptism, that's when Jesus receives the Spirit, receives the Word, receives the wisdom, kind of like all together in one, and it's difficult to kind of like parse those out, but I think all those things are taking place. And that's why he doesn't do miracles prior to that point. So I do think it's a ... s- I wouldn't say a possession. I would say it's an empowerment.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dustin Smith Uh, it's, it's the, of course, the, the, the coronation for the role as the Son of God, as the Messiah. Um, and, and I'm sure your listeners know that Son of God, um, is just a, a title for the Messiah, for the, the Jewish Christ. Uh, and that's, that's important to remind people all the time. It's, uh, it's not an ontological relation to, uh, the God of Israel.

Dan McClellan Yeah. The, and, and this, uh, from what I presented at the, the conference and stuff I've worked on for a long time, I, I really like the... I, I think there are m- many different facets to the Christology, the Christologies that are presented in the New Testament. But, uh, I, I think that dovetails nicely with the idea of Jesus as, as, uh, in a, a species of divine image, and the, the baptism, the indwelling of the Spirit, the endowment, the, the, um, you know, coronation, all of that fits well with the idea of the activation of a, or the authorization of a divine image, which is what I think is, is clo- sits closest to the surface in the Gospel of John. But, but yeah, I think there's... I'd, I'd like to see more work on, on that, on, on the idea of, uh, this endowment, indwelling, coronation, that event, and how it relates to other m- manifestations of this idea of someone's faculties or, or something like that being taken over. 'Cause you can go all the way back to Exodus, and such and such is, you know, they have the spirit of, of, uh, art or craft or whatever, and that's why they're the ones who are gonna design and, and build the temple and stuff like that. This, this is kind of all over, uh, ancient Judaism. So I'd, I'd love to see more work on that. But I was, I was curious about that. I wa- That, that kind of sprung to mind when I was reading through the, uh, the part, that part of the book. Dan, anything? I've been, I've been bogarting the conversation.

Dan Beecher You have been. And this is something that I- Well, I've been, I, n- I've been fascinated. I'm just, I'm just here, I'm just suddenly just washing away with you. Um- I, I will say that one of the things that I was interested in and wanted to talk about was, uh, and you kind of, you hinted at it, Dustin, but the idea of wisdom, the personification of wisdom, uh, whether it precedes, uh, w- whether, whether, whether that precedes life on Earth, and whether that means that Jesus, as the personification of God's wisdom, means that Jesus preexisted, uh, this realm. And so would you talk a little bit about that and, and, and, and, and sort of where you land on that question?

Dustin Smith Yeah. It's a really important point because I think a lot of the debate over the Gospel of John is trying to figure out in what sense or what is the correct way to articulate, uh, the preexistence of Jesus. And there, there are several passages where it seems like Jesus, without any other qualification, is just kind of talking about preexistence in some manner. Uh, but I think once we understand that the Gospel of John is trying to portray Jesus as the embodiment, or if you wanna say the incarnation, uh, some people don't like that, but just say, you know, the enfleshment of personified wisdom, then we can understand at least what he's trying to say and maybe what he's not trying to say. So, uh, again, if what was in the beginning, if, if in John 1:1 is, "In the beginning was the word." In God's word, you could look through the, the Hebrew Bible, uh, the noun devar 1,400 times, and you can look up that word. Uh, and I've looked up every one of those occurrences, and never once does devar refer to a conscious person. The word word is not a person. It's not the Son. It's-

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dustin Smith Now, this is gonna shock some people. The word word means a word, okay?

Dan Beecher Right.

Dustin Smith Speech and utterance, okay? Something that comes out of your mouth, okay? And, uh, you know, I, I keep pointing people 'cause I have to keep teaching this over and over again. I'm like, "You know, thi- if it's resonating with Genesis chapter 1, where like in Genesis 1:3, 'And God said, "Let there be light."' God's speaking. His words are creative and powerful and, uh, you know, bringing all things into being. Um, but that word that's coming out of His mouth, that, that's not Jesus. That's not the Son. That's just His word that is powerful and creative and able to form these things in- into existence, or however you wanna put that. Uh, and so we can see that. It's also there in, in, uh, John 1:3. But, um, let's, let's move back to this, this figure of personified wisdom because in Proverbs chapter 8, okay, which is kind of like the longest exposition of personified wisdom speaking in the first person. I mean, she basically speaks in the first person. It, I mean, it's the biggest, I would say, personified chapter in the Hebrew Bible. And she's trying to get people, she's trying to get the readers to, like, listen to her and to accept her and to follow after her. And then she makes this interesting argument that I think if you, if you're tracking carefully, it actually makes a lot of sense. She's trying to say the reason why you need to listen to her is twofold. One, she's ancient, and Jewish people like ancient things, and two, God Himself used wisdom to create the heavens and the Earth. So, if it was good enough for the God of Israel, certainly it's good enough for the readers of Proverbs to be- ... taking, taking God's wisdom. And so from Proverbs 8:22 all the way through the end of the chapter, she's just saying that, um, you know, "I was there in the beginning." And there's an open question as to whether Proverbs 8:22 is whether, uh, God had acquired wisdom or whether God created wisdom. Uh, the Septuagint translator actually took it as creation, and I think that, uh, the author of, uh, Colossians 1:15, uh, also understood it as, as creation. Um-

Dan McClellan Well, it's, it's, um, it's about procreation, the metaphor in, in Proverbs. At le- at least it seems to me the verbs have to do with giving birth, travail-

Dustin Smith Yeah

Dan McClellan ... things like that.

Dustin Smith Yeah.

Dan McClellan And, and certainly I think in, in Colossians, who, which may or may not have been written by Paul. But, um, uh, I think the... And, and, and you're talking about, yeah, you're, you're talking about the, the creation of wisdom, which is suggestive of the idea of the, the firstborn of all creatures-

Dustin Smith Yeah

Dan McClellan ... as a reference to, uh, Jesus not existing at one point and then being created. Correct?

Dustin Smith Yeah. Yeah. And so- What, what's happening is that it's, it's God's wisdom that is this first created thing, and God's wisdom ultimately comes down out of heaven and becomes embodied into, you know, the human Jesus. All right? Uh, so technically speaking, it's not Jesus himself. It's not the Son. It's not the person of Jesus that preexisted. It w- He preexisted as God's wisdom, and if God's wisdom is not a conscious person... By the way, it would be a conscious female person.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dustin Smith It wouldn't be a preexisting son. It'd be a preexisting daughter. That's, um, now, that didn't stop some of the early church fathers from saying some very silly things, but, um, we're not gonna go there. Uh, um, but a- again, this, this idea that noteworthy human beings can be the embodiment of preexistent wisdom without attributing to those human beings a conscious preexistence or a role in creation or being alongside the God of Israel in heaven in the beginning, as you can see, like, in Proverbs 31 or in those other texts we talked about. Again, that was, that was a very Jewish... It was thoroughly Jewish, and the, the, uh, the use of Proverbs, it was thoroughly biblical as well. So I think that what Jesus is doing in the Gospel of John, the Johannine Jesus, is that he sees his own ministry as a continuation of what the Word was doing in the beginning. And so we can see some interesting tips with this, okay? So, like, in John 1:4, it says, "In this, this personified Word," okay? Um, which I think the, the Word is, is being personified there as a masculine figure, just kind of as a resonation to, uh, the, uh, the personified wisdom there in Proverbs 8. So in Him, is not in the Son, it's in the Word being personified as a masculine figure-

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm

Dustin Smith ... um, was life, and that life was the light of humanity, and the light is shining in darkness, okay? You, you have notice in verse four, things happened in the past. He wa- there was life. The light was the light of humanity. Verse five shifts to the present. The light shines, present tense, okay? And so what do you have in the narrative of the Gospel of John? You have Jesus, who is the embodiment of this Word. And what is He? He's the light of the world, okay? He's separating light from darkness. He's healing blind people and telling people who can see that they're actually blind. So all the things that the Word was doing in the beginning, Jesus continues that in his own ministry, and so he's able to retroactively say, um, "Glorify me with the glory that I had before the world was," because in the beginning, personified wisdom possessed glory according to Proverbs 3:16 and Proverbs, uh, 8:18, okay? Uh, so I, that's what I think is going on in, in the Gospel of John, is that Jesus speaks of preexistence in terms of this personified Word or personified wisdom, not as a conscious son-

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm

Dustin Smith ... who was preexisting. And again, that's a thoroughly Jewish idea that I think, uh, the Gospel of John is latching onto.

Dan McClellan Now, now there's another identification of the wisdom, of wisdom, uh, with the law in, in other parts of, of-

Dustin Smith Yes

Dan McClellan ... uh, ancient Judaism. Can you talk at all about how, i- if that is reflected at all, in your opinion, in anything going on in John? Because I immediately think of, uh, John 10:34-36, where the Word of L- uh, the Word of God came to, uh, you know, un- an unnamed group of people, and-

Dustin Smith Yeah

Dan McClellan ... God said, "You are gods." And i- in the rabbinic interpretation, this is Psalm 82 being interpreted as a reference to the Israelites receiving the law at Sinai. And then Jesus says, "If, if the scriptures, which you can't, you know, annul, call those humans gods, why are you hassling me for saying I'm, I'm the Son of God?" So it's, the, the Word seems to have, uh, seems to be referring, to some degree, to the law in, in that passage. But also, I think the idea is also, "Hey, guess who, guess who was also the Word?" Um, d- can you talk at all about the, what you see there?

Dustin Smith Yeah. So we have, uh, two particular texts, uh, one from Baruch and the other one from Sirach, to where, uh, God's wisdom becomes embodied in the, the Torah, in the, the, the Commandments, the Law of the Commandments, okay? So you have this sense of embodiment in a book, okay? Um, but the whole point there is, like, okay, where do we find God's wisdom? How do we, how do we seek after it? You know, if we, if we try to seek after God's wisdom, how can we tangibly do that in a real, uh, r- way? And so those authors, uh, are saying, "Well, if you want it, follow after the, the Commandments. Follow after the, the laws of Moses," okay? And so we have this interesting thing going on there in, in John chapter 10, and I think it's interesting because, uh, it's, it's, it's all of this, uh, connection, um, after the "I and the Father are one-"

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm

Dustin Smith ... um, which is the, the neuter word one, which is, like, one in purpose, not one in, one in person or-

Dan McClellan Right

Dustin Smith ... one in being or essence.

Dan McClellan Right.

Dustin Smith Right. Um, and of course, they, they characteristically misunderstand Him, and that's a, a key thing that a lot of people need to understand about the Gospel of John, is that there is a thematic point of misunderstanding, and it occurs 16 or 17 times in the Gospel of John. Very briefly, I just, just I have the opportunity to talk about it. This is how it works. Point number one, Jesus will say something provocative. Point number two, His interlocutors will misunderstand Him, either by interpreting Him literally or by asking an inappropriate question, and then there's an optional point number three, where either Jesus or the narrator will clarify what Jesus means. But the whole point is that Jesus will say something, and to interpret Him literally is actually to misunderstand Him.

Dan McClellan Hmm.

Dustin Smith And so if we are coming to the conclusions of the reader, as readers of the opponents of Jesus, then actually we are coming to the wrong conclusions because-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dustin Smith ... the readers are constantly... Or the, excuse me, uh, the interlocutors are constantly misunderstanding Jesus. So Jesus says this thing-

Dan McClellan I, uh, just to-

Dustin Smith Yeah

Dan McClellan ... to interrupt, because that's kind of my want, uh, on the podcast. Uh, I, I think of, it's not, it's not the Gospel of John, but Mark 2, where His accusers are thinking, "Who can forgive sins but God alone?" And Jesus is like, "Mm, mm, mm," and says, "So that you may know that the Son of Man-

Dustin Smith Yeah

Dan McClellan ... has authority on earth to forgive." And, and a lot of folks who, who argue for Trinitarianism in that passage are like, "Well, if If only God can forgive, then obviously Jesus must be saying he's God. And it's like it explicitly says they're wrong and that they need to-

Dustin Smith Yeah.

Dan McClellan ... they need to-

Dustin Smith Yeah

Dan McClellan ... learn this thing. So yeah, it, it, it certainly seems like that's kind of a, a gospel trope. That's the every accusation is a misunderstanding.

Dustin Smith Yeah. Yeah. And if-- And o- once you start to see how this, this works, it's very clear to see, uh, just it, it continue to happen over and over and over again. So, um, of course, Jesus says that, "I and the Father are one." They pick up stones to stone him, and then he's just like, "Hey, for which of my good works are you doing this for? You know, I've spoken many good things from the Father." Notice he's speaking-- he's saying he's the embodiment of God's Word.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dustin Smith And he's like, "It's not for those, it's for blasphemy, because you, uh, being a human being, have made yourself out to be God or divine." And of course, what most people do is they stop there, and they assume that what they're saying is true. But Jesus doesn't agree with them. He doesn't say, "Amen, you're correct," or, "That's right," or, "Bravo, clap." He goes and he clarifies. And what he does to clarify is that he gives kind of this from lesser to greater. He says, "Okay, let me tell you about Psalm 82." Okay? Here, the Word of God came to these men, and they were called gods. Okay? So if, if they were authorized by the God of Israel because the Word of God came to, to them, and then he goes, "What do you say about me, who was sanctified and sent into the world?" Notice, I also was authorized by the God of Israel, and I'm claiming to be the Son of God. In both cases, both subjects are authorized in a legitimate way by the God of Israel. And he's saying, "If it's true about this category and it can't be nullified, why is it not true about me as well?" Okay? So he clarifies their misunderstanding by saying, "Look, I'm not making myself out on my own in this sort of cavalier way. I'm not making myself out to be God. The God of Israel has authorized me. He has sanctified me, and sanctification is, again, the Spirit has come upon me at my baptism because I am claiming to be the, the Christ, uh, you know, the Jewish Messiah," which is, is kind of the main Christological point of the Gospel of John. I think that's-

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm

Dustin Smith ... that's what's going on there, but there's a lot that we could say and unpack, and we would be here for hours- ... if we wanted to go through all those details.

Dan Beecher I wanted to ask you, you know, you talked about the, the female personification of wisdom and, and, you know, yes, wisdom is a feminine word in Hebrew and in Greek, but, uh, but I-- but, uh, they very clearly chose-- The, these authors, uh, clearly chose to make then the personification a woman. Uh, I wonder how that interacts with this man coming in. And, and I know that you provided an example in, I think it was, uh, Ben Sira-