That Time Jesus Called a Woman a Dog

Dan McClellan Hey, everybody. I'm Dan McClellan. And

Dan Beecher I'm Dan Beecher.

Dan McClellan And this is Data Over Dogma, where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion, and we combat the spread of misinformation about the same. I just basically glitched out just, uh, like I did a minute ago.

Dan Beecher Yeah. You and I, we're, we're, we're, uh, we're getting old, man.

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah.

Dan Beecher I think, I think that might be the crux of it.

Dan McClellan Yeah. We're, we're men of a certain age.

Dan Beecher We are indeed.

Dan McClellan Um, and that is the age where we have white in our beard. And, uh...

Dan Beecher And that means wisdom, and not that we just forget what we're saying in the middle of the sentence. So-

Dan McClellan I, I used to think, I used to wonder what hoary-headed, uh, which is something you see in the Bible in a couple of places, and I think it has to do with the, with the hair on top, but-

Dan Beecher Yeah, yeah ...

Dan McClellan uh, it means white-haired. So- Yeah ... um, yeah, we're getting there. We're getting there.

Dan Beecher Shakespeare talked about graybeards being old, old men. Anyway- Yeah ... we are graybeards, and we are here to talk to you today. We, we got a fun one coming up. Uh, this is a taking issue, and we are diving into two stories about Jesus and non-Israelite women.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher And, uh, they are very interesting to compare and contrast. I was unfamiliar with both before we- ... dove into this.

Dan McClellan Uh-huh.

Dan Beecher And, uh, and was a little surprised. I'm not gonna b- I'm not gonna lie.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher So I'm very excited to have this conversation, so let's dive in to taking issue. So here we are. Uh, should we start in Matthew with our, uh, our friends?

Dan McClellan I, I think it, it... Why don't we start in Mark?

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Because this, this is gonna be the first version of the story that is told. Fair enough. And then, and then Matthew is an elaboration on this story, and then John is, is kind of, uh, going in a different direction. But all three of the stories-

Dan Beecher I, I only wanted to start in Matthew because I was unaware that there was a Mark version. So.

Dan McClellan Yes. We have, we have a Markan, uh, Markan version of this, and this is the reference to the Syrophoenician woman. And they actually identify the woman in two different ways, Mark and Matthew. So-

Dan Beecher Yeah, yeah ...

Dan McClellan I'll go ahead and read from Mark 7. This is verses 24 through 30. Okay. "From there, he set out and went away to the region of Tyre."

Dan Beecher He is Jesus in this case.

Dan McClellan He is Jesus, yes.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan He is him. Um, and Tyre is, is up further north, th- so we're in the land that would've been Phoenicia much earlier. "He entered a house and did not want anyone to know he was there, yet he could not escape notice." So this is the Messianic Secret- Mm ... where he keeps telling his disciples, "Don't let, don't, don't tell anybody about this." "But a woman whose little daughter had an unclean spirit immediately heard about him, and she came and bowed down at his feet. Now, the woman was a Gentile of Syrophoenician origin," so that means from Syria, Phoenicia.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan "She begged him to cast the demon out of her daughter. He said to her, 'Let the children be fed first, for it is not fair to take the children's food and throw it to the dogs.' But she answered him, 'Sir, even the dogs under the table eat the children's crumbs.' Then he said to her, 'For that saying, you may go. The demon has left your daughter.' And when she went home, she found the child lying on the bed and the demon gone." So, uh, and-

Dan Beecher So i- in case it's not clear, that is rough.

Dan McClellan It is rough, yes. And th- This is- ... this is something that a lot of people have been debating about for a long time. But I, I think there's a pretty clear answer to this 'cause when he says, "Throw it to the dogs," he's calling this woman a dog.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And there are other par-

Dan Beecher Presumably, the, the children that he's referencing there are the, are Israel.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher Is that right?

Dan McClellan Yes. So the, and the idea is not... And c- the woman responds, "The dogs under the table eat the children's crumbs." And so people will say, "Oh, Jesus is talking about, like, a pet, like a puppy." So it's, that's a, the, that lands a little softer, the blow, doesn't it, if, if- ... it's talking about a cute little puppy instead of calling this woman a dog? No. No.

Dan Beecher It doesn't.

Dan McClellan Well-

Dan Beecher It doesn't land any softer to me. Yeah,

Dan McClellan and it's also not accurate because I th- I think most scholars would suggest that what Jesus has in mind is precisely the way that Gentiles are referred to as dogs in a couple of other parts of the New Testament. You are the dogs roaming in the street that are- Yeah ... not part of our household. You are not... You are wild dogs. You are the ones who, uh, are outside of our house. And the woman then kind of twists Jesus's metaphor by saying, "Well, the, the dogs hanging out under the table still eat the, the crumbs." And, and so she's basically trying to play on that metaphor to, uh, to say, "But the way you frame me can also be understood in this way."

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And so it's a bit of a twisting of Jesus's words, but I think that's what the, the point is, is that Jesus is like, "Well played, young lady." Uh, it is- Yeah ... uh, she has, she has taken his words and, and turned them around to make it favorable to her. So I-

Dan Beecher I, I'll tell you, this, this story shook me a little bit. I am, I'm a little shook because I, I have this image in my mind. You know, I think immediately, when I think of Jesus, I think of the guy who told the story of the Good Samaritan.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher I think of the guy who says, "Even though this person is outside of our thing, he's still..." You know, he was, he was the good one.

Dan McClellan Right.

Dan Beecher And you guys should be ashamed of yourselves sort of thing.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And this i- this feels very much the opposite of that.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher This feels like, uh, like you're, like the, like explicitly calling someone a dog because they are in the out group. ... feels really hard for me to, to, to reconcile.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And there, and there are a couple of different ways to, to approach this. You brought up the, the Good Samaritan. The Samaritans are actually a little closer to Judaism than the, than a Syrophoenician, than a Canaanite, uh, because they were a part of the house of Israel before the exile according to the tradition. And so there's a, there's a sense in which they're closer relatives, but that proximity also breeds a different kind of contempt.

Dan Beecher Mm.

Dan McClellan So there's also a sense in which they're, um, hated in a different way. At least-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... according to the way the New Testament authors represent their relationship. But yeah, it does, it does make you wonder what's going on with that. Uh, but that's all the s- the parable of the, um, the Good Samaritan is, uh, is a different part of this, this whole story, and it's, it's not incredibly consistent. But also, if we understand this to be reflecting the circumstances in the time period when it was written, then it seems like this is talking about Gentile converts to Christianity, people coming into Christianity from outside. Because th- this is written around 70 CE, so this is obviously written in a time when Paul's mission was already underway.

Dan Beecher Mm.

Dan McClellan And so there's... We could ask, is this kind of pushing back against Paul a little bit, and being like, "Sure, we can let in some, some outsiders, but they have to be you know, really creative, or they have to be a, have to have exceptional faith to be able-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... to overcome that." Or, or is it just saying, yes, even Jesus showed that the door was open a crack already during his ministry.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Even Jesus did not entirely, uh, cut off non-Jewish folks from the gospel. But in-

Dan Beecher But he did make them supplicate themselves to him entirely and beg for the scraps of the table.

Dan McClellan Right. And, and you make a wonderful point that is also made, uh, in, uh, a book written by, um, a, a friend of mine. The book is called, uh, Good Book: How White Evangelicals Saved the Bible to Save Themselves by Jill Hicks Keeton, and, and I keep meaning to invite her onto the show as well, but she's very, staying very busy as well. But, but she uses this story as an example of a kind of tale from the Bible that is deeply misogynist-

Dan Beecher Mm

Dan McClellan ... that a lot of people are trying to rehabilitate, that a lot of people are trying to make sound like it's, it's heartwarming and it actually shows Jesus was an ally all along, and it's not really doing that.

Dan Beecher No, it-

Dan McClellan Um-

Dan Beecher That, that is a stretch for me.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher I, I, I, you know, and, and I, I don't know if it's a little worse in Matthew. Uh, it, it, I mean, the, the, the things that Matthew adds to it, first of all, it, she's now a Canaanite woman.

Dan McClellan Right.

Dan Beecher Is that the same thing?

Dan McClellan Um, not really. A Syrophoenician woman is, I don't think she would qualify as Canaanite. I think Canaanite, it sounds to me almost like an archaizing thing.

Dan Beecher Hm.

Dan McClellan Uh, but, uh, th- there's, there's gonna be a little bit of, of semantic overlap. But, but the-

Dan Beecher But it is very clearly-

Dan McClellan ... but the author is different

Dan Beecher ... it's, uh, and it's very clearly the same story, so.

Dan McClellan Yes. Yes.

Dan Beecher Uh, so there's no, there's no mistaking it. Um-

Dan McClellan Right.

Dan Beecher And she, you know what, it adds a little bit of flourish to her language. "Have mercy on me, Lord, son of David. My daughter is tormented by a demon." Uh, but he did not answer her at all. So in this one, he literally starts by just ignoring her.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And then the, his disciples came and urged him saying, "Send her away, for she keeps shouting after us." He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." So it's, it's very explicit in that respect. It, it-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... it's, it's, uh... This, this gets, uh, more specific about that. But she came and knelt before him saying, "Lord, help me." He answered, "It is not fair to, uh, is, it is not fair to take the children's food and throw it to the dogs." She said, "Yes, Lord. Y- yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from the master's table." Then Jesus answered her, "Woman, great is your faith. Let it be done for you as you wish," and her daughter was healed from that moment. It is, I, yeah, I, I don't think that that helps our case at all. I think that it- ... it might make it a little bit, uh, it might just have a few more icky, uh-

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah

Dan Beecher ... details.

Dan McClellan Yeah, 'cause Jesus is kind of like, "You sicken me."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan "Get away from me."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um-

Dan Beecher He, he doesn't, I won't even answer her. I won't even psh.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Yeah. So there you, so there's that. Uh, now, we, I wanted to contrast that with, uh, John 4.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Uh, which has-

Dan McClellan The whole chapter, I think, is the discussion. Almost.

Dan Beecher No, yeah, down to, like, verse 42 or something like that. Um, so, so the, talk about this story a little bit.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Just give us the r- we're, we're not gonna read the whole thing, but give us the rundown on this story.

Dan McClellan So it's ki- it's the beginning of Jesus' ministry. He's, he's done the wedding in Cana. He's gone to visit Nicodemus to blow his mind. Uh, then we've got, uh, Jesus and John the Baptist, where we have John the Baptist say, "He must increase, but I must decrease." Uh, and then, and then Jesus learns that the Pharisees- Had heard Jesus is making and baptizing more disciples than John, although it was not Jesus himself, but his disciples who baptized. And he left Judea, started back to Galilee, but he had to go through Samaria. And we have other par- other gospels where it talks about how you kinda went around Samaria so you didn't have to go through it.

Dan Beecher Mm.

Dan McClellan And there's, there's another gospel where Jesus d- tells his disciples not to go into Samaria as they're going about preaching and healing and stuff like that. Um, but the Gospel of John represents Jesus as just trudging right on through Samaria. "So he came to a Samaritan city called Sychar, near the plot of ground that Jacob had given to his son Joseph. Jacob's well was there, and Jesus, tired out by his journey, was sitting by the well. It was about noon. A Samaritan woman came to draw water, and Jesus said to her, 'Give me a drink.' His disciples had gone to the city to buy food. The Samaritan woman said to him, 'How is it that you, a Jew, ask a drink of me, a woman of Samaria?' Jews do not share things in common with Samaritans." And, and something to point out here is that, uh, there was likely a concern with, um, purity. Like, if, if the, the Samaritan woman had a vessel that was holding water, many Jewish people probably would've been like, "Uh, no thank you. I'll get my own vessel, because yours will be unclean or impure." So-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... so that's probably part of what's going on here. And, uh, "Jesus answered her, 'If you knew the gift of God and who it is that is saying to you, "Give me a drink," you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.' The woman said to him, 'Sir, you have no bucket, and the well is deep. Where do you get that living water?'" And, and this might also be what, why she's wondering why he's asking for a drink. "You don't have your own bucket for this." Meaning, "You're gonna have to drink from my container," meaning, "You're gonna think I'm impure." So Jesus is kind of, um, kind of bucking the trend here a little bit-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... um, and pushing back against these purity concerns. Uh, and, and she goes on, "Are you greater than our ancestor Jacob, who gave us this well, and with his sons and his flocks drank from it?" And we're gonna see somebody else ask Jesus, "Are you greater than one of the patriarchs?" Specifically Abraham. So this is, this is something that people are constantly noticing about Jesus. He seems to think he's, uh, a pretty big deal.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, "Jesus said to her, 'Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again, but those who drink of the water that I will give them will never be thirsty. The water that I will give, uh, that I will give will become in them a spring of water gushing up to eternal life.' The woman said to him, 'Sir, give me this water so that I may never be thirsty or have to keep coming here to draw water.' Uh, Jesus said to her-

Dan Beecher She, she clearly didn't get that there was a metaphor happening.

Dan McClellan No.

Dan Beecher She's like, "Okay.

Dan McClellan No, yeah.

Dan Beecher I'll take eternal water."

Dan McClellan Yeah, that sounds-

Dan Beecher "I'll take-

Dan McClellan That's sweet

Dan Beecher ... I'll take I don't have to ever be thirsty again."

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher "We live in a desert. That sounds great."

Dan McClellan It's kinda like this episode of Gravity Falls- ... where they, they get a wish from the Time Baby, and, uh- ... and, and the, the guy's wish-

Dan Beecher Like you do.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And, uh, the guy's wish is that, uh, he gets infinite pizza. He has a slice of pizza that as soon as he finishes it, it returns.

Dan Beecher It's more pizza.

Dan McClellan Yes. Um-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... and everybody goes, "That, that's a good wish. Good wish." Um- So yeah, she's, she's not picking up what he's putting down.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Uh, a- and he says, "Jesus said to her, 'Go, call your husband, and come back.' The woman answered him, 'I have no husband.' Jesus said to her, 'You are right in saying, "I have no husband," for you have had five husbands, and the one you have now is not your husband. What you have said is true.'" Well-

Dan Beecher What does that mean? Uh, just, uh, just, uh, just, he's p- he is divining things about her-

Dan McClellan Yes

Dan Beecher ... personal life that she had not told him.

Dan McClellan Yes. And, and also, uh, she is, uh, living with somebody, cohabiting-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... uh, in sin. Uh-

Dan Beecher Oh

Dan McClellan ... so yes.

Dan Beecher Shameful. He's, uh- He's, he's pulling a Benny Hinn here. He's a-

Dan McClellan Calling her out, huh?

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Uh, w- yeah

Dan Beecher ... but, but magically knowing things about her, her personal life.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Well, if he, if he takes off his blazer and starts swinging it around to- ... to knock them over with the Spirit, uh, I, I don't remember that part of the text. That might be in, in an older manuscript. Um, but, but what's interesting here is in the previous story, the metaphor was what? It was bread. In this story, the metaphor is water.

Dan Beecher Water. Yeah.

Dan McClellan We got water. We got bread. We've got these basic elements of life. Uh, Jesus' confrontations with these, uh, non-Israelite, non-male persons, uh, revolve around these, these fundamental, uh, necessaries. Um-

Dan Beecher But this was, yeah, so this is when Jesus was off of carbs, so- ... he switched.

Dan McClellan Yeah, it was just a, a, a water diet. Uh, the lemonade diet, you know? Get some, uh, a little bit of maple syrup is, is, uh, what you add there. Uh, and, uh, she says, the woman said to him, "Sir, I see that you are a prophet." Uh, which, you know, she seems kind of, uh, kinda casual about that. She's like-

Dan Beecher Well-

Dan McClellan ... "Huh, so you can tell the future, huh?"

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um-

Dan Beecher So, oh, right

Dan McClellan ... that's interesting.

Dan Beecher Which is funny, because he hasn't said anything about the future.

Dan McClellan No.

Dan Beecher He just told her her past and present. But that's okay. We'll just, uh-

Dan McClellan Yes

Dan Beecher ... we'll just go with it.

Dan McClellan "I stole your wallet-" "... which contains all of these secrets." Uh-

Dan Beecher "Is this your card?"

Dan McClellan Uh, and then she goes on, "Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain." That would be Gerizim. That's, that's the big, uh, to-do between the, uh, the Samaritans and the Jewish people-

Dan Beecher Mm

Dan McClellan ... that one was on one mountain, the other- ... uh, says that Moses said to worship on this mountain. "But you say that the place where people must worship is in Jerusalem." Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem." Which is probably the author's way of having Jesus prophesy of the destruction of the temple.

Dan Beecher Hmm.

Dan McClellan 'Cause we're not gonna be worshiping in the temple anymore. "You worship what you do not know. We worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews." So, so Jesus is kind of saying, "We're right, and you're wrong."

Dan Beecher Yeah, we're, we're, we're back to, uh, I got my own flock. We got the correct, we got the correct, we got the good stuff here.

Dan McClellan Yeah. "But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such as these to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth." The woman said to him, "I know that Messiah is coming, who is called Christ. When he comes, he will proclaim all things to us." Now, here's an interesting thing. We don't have any, any indication that the Samaritans expected a messiah to come.

Dan Beecher Oh.

Dan McClellan Uh, I think there w- I think they, they had Tehab was the name of somebody who was supposed to show up, but they didn't refer to them as a messiah, and the mission of that person was, as, as far as I know, was different from the mission of the Messiah according to early Judaism. So I, I think the author of the Gospel of John is kind of misunderstanding, misrepresenting things a little bit here.

Dan Beecher Pu- putting some words into the Samaritan mouth.

Dan McClellan Yes, yes.

Dan Beecher Sure.

Dan McClellan Jesus- And Jesus said to her, "I am he, the one who is speaking to you."

Dan Beecher Which, I- can I just tell you, when I read that line, in my mind, two things happened. First, the, the, the sort of God/Jesus voice that I was, that I was raised to think of, which is sort of that base voice of, "I am he-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... the one who is speaking to you." And it's slow, and it's like, it has gravitas or whatever.

Dan McClellan Uh-huh.

Dan Beecher And then my brain decided to read it like, "I'm he, the one who's speaking to you. That's me. It's me. I'm the guy. I'm a- I'm actually him." I just thought that that was a much funnier way of rendering that line.

Dan McClellan Did you, did you watch the, the third season, which r- was really just one episode, of, uh, Angels and Demons? Was that what it was called? No, no. Shoot. What was it called? The- Uh- ... uh, the, the, um, the David, um... Oh my gosh. I can't-

Dan Beecher David Tennant? The one-

Dan McClellan David Tennant

Dan Beecher ... Good Omens?

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher Is that

Dan McClellan Good Omens? Good Omens. That's it. Not Angels and Demons. Good Omens. Did you see the third season, which was really just a single, like, movie, if I recall?

Dan Beecher I may not have seen that, no.

Dan McClellan Okay. Yeah. The, so they, they have a third season, and they have Jesus come back.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan But he's precisely that. He's

Dan Beecher just-

Dan McClellan He's a gentle, like, "Hey."

Dan Beecher "Hey, man."

Dan McClellan "How are you?" And, "I'm Jesus."

Dan Beecher "That's me."

Dan McClellan And yeah, it's, uh... But he's, he kinda has to recall what his mission and identity is.

Dan Beecher Hmm.

Dan McClellan And, um, it's a good... I, I thought it was a, I thought it was a good way to tie off that, that, uh, series.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And, and that is, that is it. Like, there's, there's no more after that.

Dan Beecher There you go.

Dan McClellan But it, it-

Dan Beecher Okay

Dan McClellan ... it was weird.

Dan Beecher So Jesus says, "I'm the guy." Uh, she's, she's like, "Wait, we were expecting this guy any minute." And he says, "It's me."

Dan McClellan Yeah. Ta-da.

Dan Beecher And then, and then his disciples come, who he sent away to go and get takeout.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And, uh, and they're like, "Uh..." The, but this one decidedly differently says, f- different from Matthew and the Canaanite woman, it says, "No one said, 'What do you want?' or, 'Why are you speaking with her?'"

Dan McClellan Uh-huh.

Dan Beecher So I think that's interesting, because the, the disciples grumbled with the Canaanite woman.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And were like, "Hey, will you get rid of this woman? She's, uh, she's bugging us." But I guess they've learned their lesson by now- ... uh, that who knows what's gonna happen.

Dan McClellan Yeah. So it makes you wonder if the author is trying to... It's like, well, there is this story over here. I ne- I wanna tell a similar story, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna mix it up a little bit.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan So we got, we got a remix of Jesus's confrontation with a non-Israelite woman. But maybe the author of John doesn't want her to be a Gentile. Maybe the author of John wants her to be a Samaritan, because maybe that s- people would've considered her even less worthy.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Or maybe, maybe they, uh, this is somebody who's closer to Jesus as a Jewish person.

Dan Beecher Yeah. May, uh, maybe the author of John is less comfortable with the idea of further outsiders. Like, he's like, "Okay, we can gather in some of the outsiders. You know, Samaritans are basically us. W- Whatever. We'll just, we'll, we can, they can come, but, but we, Canaanites, that's a bridge too far."

Dan McClellan And the, uh, and, and Jesus is, like, he's getting really annoying here. So the, the woman goes back to her city, le- leaves her water jar, goes back to the city and starts saying to the people, "Come and see the, a man who told me everything I've ever done. He cannot be the Messiah, can he?" Uh, "They left the city and were on their way to him. Meanwhile, the disciples were urging him, 'Rabbi, eat something.' But he said to them, 'I have food to eat that you do not know about.'" So he's being kind of Matthew McConaughey on them.

Dan Beecher I've got- I've got pocket cheese. Leave me alone. I'm fine.

Dan McClellan But they're just like, "I just, I just want you to stop saying odd stuff." Uh- Uh- So, so the disciples said to one another, "Surely no one has brought him something to eat." So they're like, "I don't get it. What does that mean?"

Dan Beecher He's, he's, uh, secretly got jerky in his robe.

Dan McClellan We still got that meat lovers in the trunk of the car. Jesus, that was from, uh, uh, that was from, oh my gosh, Tommy Boy.

Dan Beecher There you go.

Dan McClellan Uh, Jesus said to him, to them, "My food is to do the will of him who sent me, and to complete his work." Uh, and obviously they were like, "That doesn't clarify things, Jesus."

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Uh-

Dan Beecher Also, it doesn't technically feed you.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher You are still hungry.

Dan McClellan "Do you, do you not say, 'Four months more, then comes the harvest?' But I tell you, look around you and see how the fields are ripe for harvesting. The reaper is already receiving wages and is gathering fruit for eternal life, so that sower and reaper may rejoice together. For here the saying holds true: One sows and another reaps. I sent you to reap that for which you did not labor. Others have labored, and you have entered into their labor." Many Samar- ... And, and I think the idea here is, is a, a message to the people of the generation that are consuming the Gospel of John, you know, several decades down the road. They're, they're not the ones who sowed the seeds of, of Jesus following. They're the ones who are hopefully reaping the benefits.

Dan Beecher Yeah. You guys have it so easy. In my day, we had to sow the seeds- ... uphill both ways.

Dan McClellan Yeah. And we, we carried an onion on a string 'cause that was the- ... that was the way we did it back then. Um, many Samaritans from that city believed in him because of the woman's testimony. "He told me everything I've ever done." So when the Samaritans came to him, they asked him to stay with them, and he stayed there two days. And many more believed of his word. They said to the woman, "It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is truly the Savior of the world." And scene.

Dan Beecher And scene. Uh,

Dan McClellan yes.

Dan Beecher Uh, very, very moving, very, very touching. But again, uh-

Dan McClellan And the good guys win in the end. The, a bunch of Samaritans convert and become followers of Jesus, which- Yeah ... and there does not seem to be any barrier there. Jesus doesn't say, "Hold on a minute. We gotta do the, the super-secret handshake so that we can- ... we can cast down the walls that stand between us," uh, like he kinda does with the Syrophoenician woman- Right ... where he's like, "You gotta show me you're extra special."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Or, or you ain't-

Dan Beecher No, nor, nor does he say to the, uh, to, to his disciples, "Hang on, I gotta talk to these dogs for a second."

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah, yeah. He he's, he doesn't, uh, he's n- he doesn't, uh, have that, uh, "you ain't ready for this jelly" attitude that- ... uh, that he seems to for the Canaanites and the Syrophoenicians 'cause the Samaritans either are, are closer, they're better, or maybe they're further away and they're worse, and he's trying to kinda double down on, on how expansive, uh, Jesus' Gospel is. But- There

Dan Beecher you go ...

Dan McClellan and, and there's scholarship on this. Uh, in fact, there's an open access book. I wonder if I, I put it somewhere. Eh, I don't know where it is. Nevermind. But, uh, SBL Press has a bunch of open access books, and they've got one on, on Jesus and John and, and I think historicity or something like that. But there's a paper in there, uh, talking about the story of the, um, Jesus visiting the Samaritan woman that compares it to the, uh, the story in Mark and, and compares it to some other stories as well. And, and one other thing I, I, a book I wanna bring up because it's just, it's relevant to the, this segment. Uh, we've had on the show my friend James McGrath.

Dan Beecher Mm-hmm.

Dan McClellan He's, he's come on to talk about John the Baptist.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan But he has written a lot of stuff, and just a couple years ago he published a book called What Jesus Learned from Women. And the book is, is basically talking about how the, the New Testament represents Jesus as learning things from women through questioning them and experiences and things like that. So it's, it's a very interesting, uh, book, published by Wipf and Stock if anyone is interested in checking it out.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher I, I don't feel like Jesus learned a lot from the Samaritan woman. I, uh-

Dan McClellan Well, there's a painting of Jesus and the Samaritan woman by the well. Uh, that's the cover of the book, so- Okay ... uh, you'll have to read the book to see what Jesus- ... uh, seems to have learned, according to my friend James McGrath- Yeah ... from the Samaritan woman.

Dan Beecher Who knows more than I do, that's for sure. So there you go. All right. Well, I, that is so interesting, and, uh, I'm not, I'm not convinced that we solved the Bible's misogyny problems here.

Dan McClellan Not yet.

Dan Beecher Uh, or, or the, uh, insight, in group, out group, uh, bigotries. Uh, I, it, it's, I'm still uncomfortable. I'm deeply uncomfortable-

Dan McClellan Yeah, yeah ...

Dan Beecher with a lot of this stuff. Yeah. Uh, but fascinated by it. So there you go. That's it for today. Uh, thanks so much for joining us. If you'd like to become a part of keeping this show rolling, uh, we'd love to have you join us over on patreon.com/dataoverdogma, where you can, uh, get access to an early and ad-free version of every episode, as well as weekly, uh, bonus content that we do for the people, uh, at a certain level, and it's just a lot of fun. And we encourage you to go and check it out. Uh, thanks so much to Roger Gowdy for editing the show. Thanks to Sam Holden for being our right-hand man. And thanks to all y'all for tuning in. We sure do appreciate you.

Dan McClellan Bye, everybody.