The Pope Says No to the Death Penalty. Does the Bible?

Dan McClellan Hey, everybody, I'm Dan McClellan. And

Dan Beecher I'm Dan

Dan McClellan Beecher. This is Data Over Dogma, where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion, and combat the spread of misinformation about the same. You staying warm today, Dan- Uh, you know- ... in the fall weather?

Dan Beecher Uh, yeah, it's, it's nice and chilly outside. It's a little warm, actually, here where I am, uh, at the top of- Yeah ... uh, of Data Over Dogma tower here, uh ... in, uh, in, in my studio. So, but I, but, yeah, it's nice. It's nice. I like the fall. I don't love the fall the way some people love the fall. There are- Mm-hmm ... there are fall people.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher Pumpkin spice is fine. I enjoy it. But, uh, but I, I don't, I don't get giddy the way some fall people do.

Dan McClellan Yeah, some people, they've got everything packed away. It's time to break it all out, and then there's a vibe shift. Yeah. And, um, yeah, I'm, I'm not into it quite as much. But, you know, I, my, my work uniform is the same- Yeah ... 365 days a year. So, uh-

Dan Beecher That, that's the truth. I, I can- No, no change

Dan McClellan in that regard ...

Dan Beecher I can confirm. Uh, all right. Well, I'm gonna... We, we should dive in with a show. Today, we're gonna get topical with a, uh, thing. The pope decided to weigh in on a, uh, on, on a topic, that is capital punishment. Uh, and w- and we're gonna talk about it. So, uh- Yeah ... let's get topical. So, the pope comes roaring in. Uh, I'll read a quote from-

Dan McClellan Off the top rope, yep ...

Dan Beecher from the pope, who said, "The death penalty is inadmissible because it is an attack on

Dan McClellan the inviolability and dignity of the

Dan Beecher person. The common good can be a safeguard, and the requirements of justice can be met without recourse to capital punishment. Effective systems of detention have been developed that protect citizens, while at the same time do not completely deprive those who are guilty of the p- possibility of res- of redemption." Who are guilt- Yes ... those who are guilty of the possibility- Right ... of redemption, right. There you go. Uh, that's, uh, that, that, that's an interesting thing for him to say, especially at this moment in, uh, in our mo- history, in US history- Mm-hmm ... where we have, uh, th- the Fort Hood shooter, m- uh, Nidal Malik Hasan, who as of very recently for us, y- you're listening and watching in the future, uh, but for us, uh, it was very recent that Trump decided to call off the live stream of his, uh, firing squad shooting.

Dan McClellan Yes, 'cause that's what, that's what Hegseth decided was, w- you know, at one point he's like, "You know what'd be cool?"

Dan Beecher Yeah. "If we

Dan McClellan live stream this, man."

Dan Beecher Good- And- ... God. Yeah. Uh, that- ... yeah. Where, where is he-

Dan McClellan 'Cause that's in, it says that in Isaiah, doesn't it?

Dan Beecher Well, we'll get to that. Uh, because-

Dan McClellan Here I am. Let me watch the, the execution of this criminal.

Dan Beecher Right. Yeah, exactly. Uh, and then, and then also in the news was, uh, was, oh, what's her name? Um, Chris- Christa Pike, who was set to be executed, and was... Uh, they attempted to do so twice-

Dan McClellan Yes ... with lethal injections. By lethal injection, yeah.

Dan Beecher And, uh, they, they didn't get her. Uh, she survived, which is horrifying.

Dan McClellan Horrifying, yeah. There, I, I saw the headline of one of the reports. It was like, "She's conscious again, and confused." And it's like, well, I would... Yeah, I would-

Dan Beecher I feel like we're all- ... think so ... a little confused by th- at this point. Uh- Yeah ... so there are legal implications and moral implications to all of that. But what we need t- to dive into are the biblical implications- Mm ... of all of this.

Dan McClellan Mm.

Dan Beecher So, uh, so the pope says, "No," gives it a big- Yeah ... thumbs down.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher But the immediate thought of many people, including myself- Mm-hmm ... is I'm pretty sure that I have read in the Bible itself a number of infractions, and even sort of what seem to me to be minor misdemeanors- ... which are all, which, uh-

Dan McClellan Even, even peccadilloes, uh, and-

Dan Beecher Yeah, your, your various and sundry, uh, small little, uh, things that all carry, at, at least at one point or another in the Bible, a death sentence.

Dan McClellan Yes.

Dan Beecher Uh, I'm talking, yes, murder, but also kidnapping i- in Exodus, striking or cursing one's parents, uh-

Dan McClellan Being a bad, a rebellious teenager- Yeah ... will, will get you, uh, dragged out into the town square and, and stoned. Uh, you don't even- Adultery. Yeah. Yeah. Adultery. Um, not being a virgin, uh- ... on your wedding night, but only if you're a woman.

Dan Beecher Right. Yes, yeah. Um, yeah. I mean, you can't kill a man for that. Come on.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Pick- picking up sticks on the Sabbath. Uh, you know, we got...

Dan Beecher It, it's, you know those stick people. Yeah. Someone needed to do something. I'm glad that that's- ... that someone's, someone's got something to take care of there.

Dan McClellan Oh, man. Yeah. There, there are a lot of, uh, the, the, the... There are parts of, of the Bible where God gets a little killy when, um- ... uh, when it comes to-

Dan Beecher Or at very least, the law does. I mean, it's- Yes ... it, I guess it is, like, it is sort of purported to be from God. Yeah. We're talking about, like, covenant code in Exodus, and- Mm-hmm ... we're talking about Leviticus and Deuteronomy. Yep. All the places where, like, those really nasty laws exist. So- Yep, yep.

Dan McClellan So yeah, I- And so everybody, everybody just threw a conniption on, on, uh, on Twitter. Yeah. And everybody was like, "You've never read the Bible."

Dan Beecher To the Pope?

Dan McClellan Yeah, to the Pope. Yeah, but, you know, if, if he's-

Dan Beecher I mean, I don't know if he's read the Bible. I have no evidence- ... that he's read it. I don't-

Dan McClellan I, I think he has, I think he has advanced degrees in, in, uh-

Dan Beecher It seems like he has a-

Dan McClellan ... theological studies. Yeah

Dan Beecher ... he would have to have a working knowledge, uh-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... to get where he is,

Dan McClellan but yeah. I don't know. But, but if you've got 83,400 followers on Twitter and Christ is the first thing in your, in your bio- ... you know, nobody can talk to you about the Bible. You have... You can say anything you want- ... to the Pope. Um, but there's a... And, and I was immediately kind of baffled by this because I recognized as soon as the, the first sentence, "The death penalty is inadmissible because it is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person." And this struck me as very, very familiar rhetoric. And, and-

Dan Beecher Hm

Dan McClellan ... I, I wanna get into some of the death penalty stuff, particularly as it pertains to the New Testament, but I wanna, I wanna maybe lead into it by talking about why this rhetoric sounded very familiar to me, because I've been doing a lot of research in, uh, recent years related to how exactly we decided that the God of the Bible was against slavery.

Dan Beecher Hm.

Dan McClellan And it was precisely this idea of the dignity of the person that is at the foundation of that, uh, rhetorical, um, soft shoe that we ran on the enslavers back in the 19th century.

Dan Beecher Right, because we-

Dan McClellan And-

Dan Beecher Be- because Christians, uh, who, who were, uh, enslavers-

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm

Dan Beecher ... were in a problem. Or, or, or rather we- rather abolitionists were in a bit of a pickle when it came to the Bible 'cause slavery's just all through it. Slave-

Dan McClellan Right

Dan Beecher ... it's just, it's all slavery all the time.

Dan McClellan Right.

Dan Beecher So, like-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... so, so how when you are my ancestor, Henry Ward Beecher, leading your congregation in Brooklyn, and you're trying to, and you're trying to preach that slavery is an abomination-

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm

Dan Beecher ... how do you justify it?

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher You g- you, you go for the, the, for the, the, the dignity and inviolability of the, uh, of the person.

Dan McClellan Yeah, and, and this is, this is a long-term kind of rhetorical campaign where they actually... People had to convince themselves that, hey, it's, it's not just the literal surface sense of the text. We're actually gonna negotiate with the text a little bit more transparently, a little bit more openly. And the idea was, we're gonna take these principles that we find here that we consider to be foundational, and we're gonna use them as the interpretive lens to reconsider some of the other things. And so Genesis 1:27, about man being created in the image of God, became that foundation. That, and that is precisely what the Pope is talking about when he talks about the dignity of the person. And I recall the, that in his recent encyclical about AI. Do you recall this? Um-

Dan Beecher No.

Dan McClellan The, there was a papal encyclical, uh, earlier this year, uh, about artificial intelligence-

Dan Beecher Okay, sure

Dan McClellan ... and, and humanity and all this.

Dan Beecher Don't you mean-

Dan McClellan And one of the-

Dan Beecher ... superior intelligence or- ... supreme int- whatever SI is meant to stand for?

Dan McClellan Um, no, I don't.

Dan Beecher Okay.

Dan McClellan And, uh, so one of the, one of the paragraphs says, "At the heart of the Christian understanding of the human person lies the great biblical affirmation that men and women are created in the image and likeness of the triune God. Created for relationship, every, every human person is planned and willed by God to enter into communion with him, with others, and with creation. Human dignity does not depend on a person's abilities, wealth, or position in life, nor on the right or wrong choices made. Instead, it is a gift that precedes and transcends each person endowed by God as an expression of his unfailing love." And the... And this is what the, the Pope is appealing to. So, so basically what the Pope is saying is that, hey, if we take this seriously, this argument that is the reason we abandoned slavery, or at least this was the, this was the key-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... that unlocked, uh, abolitionism, that Genesis 1:27, every human's created in the image of God, therefore has dignity, therefore has worth in the eyes of God, and we apply it to the death penalty, we similarly are going to come away from that negotiation deciding precisely what the, the Pope decides, that this is inadmissible. And so I was, I was baffled by all the people who, if you bring up slavery, will talk about human dignity.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan We'll talk about Genesis 1:27. We'll talk about made in the image of God. We'll talk about your neighbor. We'll talk about all these things.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan But when the Pope applies the exact same line of reasoning to the death penalty, suddenly there is braying in the streets about how the Pope doesn't read the Bible. And the hypocrisy is so bad. Oh, I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna make a video about the... We, we've talked about Josh Howerton on this show before, right?

Dan Beecher Maybe. I, I-

Dan McClellan He's come up?

Dan Beecher ... d- I don't remember the name, but sure. It may be-

Dan McClellan 'Cause he even-

Dan Beecher ... if I saw his face

Dan McClellan ... he even decided to weigh in on this. And it was so funny because he said that, you know, the, uh, the death penalty, um, has got the... He said the Po- the Pope's not poping very well right now. Um, and he went into this, this, this screed about how the death penalty needs to be there for, um, people who are taking innocent life, and that it is okay to... The death penalty is okay because these are not innocent people. These are guilty people. And, and I, and I was baffled by this because I recall very, very vividly Josh Howerton excusing genocide in the Bible-

Dan Beecher Hm

Dan McClellan ... by arguing that there are no innocent people.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan That there's only been one innocent- ... man who ever lived.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And so, um, I've got both those clips and, and- Yes. I am licking my chops to make that video where I point out- That'll be fun ... the rank hypocrisy. But anyway.

Dan Beecher Well, I mean, it is... It's interesting because that points out sort of what's going on in his mind and in minds like- Yeah ... his, which is that on- that what's really happening is I wanna justify all the things that I, I already ascribe to.

Dan McClellan Right.

Dan Beecher My brain is already on board with capital punishment. I've already gotten- Right ... there. I, you know, maybe it's part of my, you know, my conservative mindset. You know, I, I identi- I identify myself with conservatism, and right now, conservatism identifies itself with capital punishment. And ipso facto, I... You know, it's part of my identity to believe that capital punishment is a moral good.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher So how dare the Pope come at me and say it's not a moral good, it's a moral bad. Wha- Yeah. S- so I gotta, so I gotta justify that. And also, the Bible has genocide in it, but that's okay 'cause it's the Bible, so I gotta figure out how to justify that.

Dan McClellan Right. And, and it... I think it's, it's very helpful to point out that the, the root of all of... not all, but the overwhelming majority of our reactions to this kind of stuff is our feelings.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And specifically, our feelings based on our understanding of our own identities and who's part of our group and what we're supposed to think about these things. And so we, we have this intuitive impulse to agree with or disagree with a- anything that might come up. And then what we do is we set to work trying to rationalize our intuitive impulse.

Dan Beecher I mean- And

Dan McClellan if- ... every- everybody

Dan Beecher else does that. All of my choices- ... are about logic-

Dan McClellan Right ... and reason. Right. Yeah, that... And that's one of the in- i- that's kind of an intuitive kind of fail-safe. It's an intuitive defense mechanism that we can recognize when other people are biased, but we can't recognize when, when we're biased. Yeah. And every- we're all biased.

Dan Beecher Yeah, yeah.

Dan McClellan Um-

Dan Beecher And we, and we all... Like, our brains fail us- Yeah ... especially when it's a high-stakes emotional thing, like you feel like your, uh, your religion or your political identity is under attack.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher And suddenly it's like defend at all costs, even if it's a r- you know, it doesn't matter how reasonable and logical the attack is, the def- the, the defense mode kicks in pretty hardcore. Yeah. And you have to train yourself really well to, to, to sort of back off of that stuff.

Dan McClellan And, and it's situationally emergent. Yeah. We, we do not keep actively online in our minds every argument we've made ever about stuff.

Dan Beecher Right. Right. Yeah. Exactly. And so

Dan McClellan it, it, it is situationally emergent, and we're gonna react however we're gonna react, without the, the, uh, luxury of being able to go back and be like, "Well, am I being consistent with this?" So with- Yeah ... with Josh, I think it's such, such a juicy kind of example of how that works, where in one situation you're like, "Nobody's innocent." Yeah. "There were no innocent people. No..." Like, even the infants who were being killed, they're not innocent either according to Josh Howerton. And then he turns around and in another place is like, "But they're all innocent."

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan "And that's the point. The Bible treats them as..." And, and so, oh, it's- Yeah ... it's so, so funny. But, um, getting back to, to the biblical stuff, there are an awful lot of people who will point to the New Testament and to Jesus as an indication either that the death penalty is okay or that the death penalty is not okay, because- Yeah ... you had a bunch of people who were immediately like, "Jesus accepted the death penalty." It's like, Jesus was executed. Well- And, and it was-

Dan Beecher Uh, in point of fact- And it was a- ... he accepted his own execution. So- Right ... uh, point for them.

Dan McClellan Yeah. But-

Dan Beecher Checkmate.

Dan McClellan And, and then there are other people who will, will point to a number of other things. Jesus said, uh, you know, uh, who, "The, the one who is without sin, let him cast the first stone." Right. Which is, is, is basically he's obstructing the imposition of the death penalty. Now, they didn't- Right ... really have the authority. Uh, I, I think the, that scholars are, are still in pretty widespread agreement that at least for adultery, uh, Jewish authorities did not have the ability to just, uh, impose the de- the death penalty. But, um, there are, there are a couple of other passages that come up-

Dan Beecher Well, and also a minor point of order. Hmm. That story was interpolated into the book, so we don't even know where that came from.

Dan McClellan That's exactly right.

Dan Beecher Ha. I know a thing. Yeah. I know things sometimes.

Dan McClellan But there, there are other people who will, uh, who will point out that justice is retributive- Hmm ... in the Bible, and that's the way it's supposed to be. And some people will go to-

Dan Beecher By, by that do you mean sort of eye for an eye-

Dan McClellan Exactly ... and a tooth for a tooth ... eye for an eye. And so some people will go to the Sermon on the Mount, and a section of the Sermon on the Mount that was called the Antitheses.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And the antitheses are, are Jesus' kind of, um, one-upmanship. This is where you have heard that it was said, "Don't do this." Well, I say to you, um, you know, we're gonna ratchet it up.

Dan Beecher Do it twice. Ha. Yeah.

Dan McClellan Uh, and in verse, uh, Matthew 5:38, "You have heard that it was said 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.'" Retributive justice. Right. "But I say to you, do not resist an evildoer. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, give your coat as well. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go also the second mile. Give to the one who asks of you, and do not refuse anyone who wants to borrow from you." And so is Jesus here overruling eye for an eye? Is Jesus saying th- retributive justice is now null and void?

Dan Beecher Maybe.

Dan McClellan Maybe. Yeah, that, that's the thing. We don't know for sure, but that is... Certainly, that's not out of bounds, that interpretation-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... of what's going on here.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan And there w- there will be people who say, "Well, this is about interpersonal relationships. This is not about state," uh-

Dan Beecher There, there are some amazing, uh, uh... W- we should probably do some of the apologetics about Jesus saying, "Turn the other cheek and w- and walk the extra mile." 'Cause that's, uh... People have some amazing apologetics about that.

Dan McClellan Well, and there, and there are even, uh, there are, there are progressive folks-

Dan Beecher Mm

Dan McClellan ... who are, who are trying to say that it is, it is subversive, and that it is actually, uh, about, uh, trying to undermine attempts to leverage systemic power. Um, but, and, and that all comes from a single source really. It builds on a single source, and, and I don't think it has much going for it. But I- I've... People who argue, "Oh, well, well, this is about interpersonal relationships," well, yeah, the whole New Testament is because it was written by people who had no access to systemic power.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan None of these people had any... These were not the court prophets. These were not the scribes of the king. These were not people who had any authority to say anything at all about how the government was run. These were people under the boot of the Roman Empire.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan So of course they're gonna be having Jesus talk about, "Well, this is how we're gonna do things on our level," because they had no authority to talk about any other level.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Does that mean that when Jesus says, "Oh, well, here's what this law, which was written by the scribes of the king, here's what this law is actually saying," does that mean but only on the interpersonal level, on the social, political level, the whole law of Moses continues to be in force in the exact same way it always was? That's kind of a dumb argument.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Jesus was like, "I'm gonna separate the law of Moses into the personal and the political, and I don't have the authority to touch the political. I'm sorry. I can't do anything- ... about the political. But I will take those laws on the personal level, and I will entirely f- I will fiddle with them, uh, and, you know, we'll change all those around." Uh, I, I don't think that makes much sense either. So-

Dan Beecher I think, I think he was talking about, uh, civil lawsuits, uh, civil law and the not criminal law. That's-

Dan McClellan Right, yeah

Dan Beecher ... I think that's the distinction.

Dan McClellan That's the distinction, yeah. Yeah. And, um, and the part where he said, "Now, I'm only gonna say this once. This is only about civil law-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... not criminal law," that, that got left out unfortunately.

Dan Beecher Yeah, he forgot. Well, he... It was hard to hear. He was on a mount.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher It was, it was... If you, you remember the life of Brian.

Dan McClellan That's why we have that famous... Well, I was about to say there's the famous manuscript that has something about cheese makers. Um-

Dan Beecher That's right

Dan McClellan ... yes.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Uh, but there's, there's another passage that is in the Gospel of Matthew that, that the folks who are pro, uh, death penalty, uh, and, and I cannot listen to arguments about the death penalty without hearing Sideshow Bob in my head going- ... "You secretly long for a cold-hearted Republican to lower taxes, brutalize criminals, and rule you like a king."

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan I mean, the, that's, that's prophetic words from, from Sideshow Bob. But, um-

Dan Beecher Well, Sideshow Bob was a... He was a prophet, I think we can all agree.

Dan McClellan Yeah. Yeah, I, I think that's, that's, uh, that's hard to dispute. Uh, but we go f- 10 chapters down the road to Matthew 15, and we get something that a lot of the pro-death penalty folks will appeal to. "The Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, 'Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders, for they do not wash their hands before they eat?' He answered them, 'And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said, "Honor your father and your mother"; and, "Whoso speaks evil of father or mother must surely die." But you say that whoever tells father or mother, "Whatever support you might have had from me is given to God," then that person need not honor the father.' So for the sake of your tradition, you nullify the Word of God." And here it kinda sounds like Jesus is saying, "Hey, that's supposed to be the death penalty. Come on, guys." "That's still, that's still in force." And what do we do with that? Is Jesus in, in, out of one side of his mouth saying, "Hey, no more eye for an eye. We're not doing that anymore," and then out of the other side of his mouth going, "Hey, you're supposed to kill your... You know, you're, you're s- not supposed to do that 'cause that's the death penalty"? And, um, and scholars will point out that, that this is actually taken from the Gospel of Mark, whereas the, the antitheses seem to be more uniquely Matthean, so they seem to be what Matt, the author of the Gospel of Matthew, might have come up with themselves or at least wanted to focus on and center themselves whereas this is more redactional.

Dan Beecher Dan, it's, it's almost as if you're saying that there is that the Bible isn't clear on this-

Dan McClellan Mm

Dan Beecher ... on these points.

Dan McClellan Why would I say that? When have I ever-

Dan Beecher It's almost like you're saying that we don't actually know Jesus' position because there are contradictory, uh, accounts of Jesus' position. I don't know how that's possible.

Dan McClellan Within the same book. And it's not, it's not between Matthew and Luke. It's not between Revelation and, and Romans. It is within the Gospel of Matthew, where you have Jesus who rhetorically appeals to the death penalty in one situation and then in another seems to rhetorically undercut the entire logic of the death penalty.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Uh, and so yeah, the... If you... You can't look at the Bible and say, "Oh, it's definitely this one way." There are... We've, we've talked m- many times, but you could probably... You only need one hand to count the number of things that are in the Bible that are unilateral-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... where it's just not really debated, and one of them's slavery- ... which we got rid of-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... based on, based on the, uh, dignity of the human person, based on-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... Genesis 1:27, what the pope appealed to. So yeah, just saying, "Well, I mean, it's in the Bible," that doesn't mean anything. The Bible contradicts itself in so many ways- We, we can't appeal to the Bible for, for just this and, oh, the... What's the passage? That... Genesis 9:6 is the one that everybody came up with. Um, that was the one that, that everybody was like, "Look, that's the fundamental thing." And that's where, um, God says, "Whoever sheds the blood of a human, by a human shall that person's blood be shed."

Dan Beecher Mm-hmm.

Dan McClellan For in his own image, God made humans. So it, it's kind of funny that we're like-

Dan Beecher It's got both

Dan McClellan ... "Well, yeah." When, when, when it comes to, when it comes to slavery, we're gonna take the in God's image side of things. When it comes to the death penalty, we're gonna take the shed man's blood side of things.

Dan Beecher Yeah.

Dan McClellan Um, but when-

Dan Beecher Well, and I think that the, the... Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. Go ahead.

Dan McClellan No, go

Dan Beecher ahead. Well, I was just gonna-

Dan McClellan Well-

Dan Beecher I was, I was, I was just gonna say that, like, I- it's something that you and I, that we on this channel come back to over and over again, and that is that, like, you c- you don't get to say that the Bible is the foundation of your morality, because the Bible has all of the moralities.

Dan McClellan Yeah.

Dan Beecher That you, and you have chosen which

Dan McClellan ones you ascribe to. Yeah.

Dan Beecher So that's, that's another th- this is just another example of where, you know, I-

Dan McClellan It's a choose your own adventure

Dan Beecher ... and, and I, and a valid, uh, argument can be made on either side of this thing, both biblically and perhaps morally. I, you know, I, I feel... I, I don't like the death penalty. It's not something that I'm into. I, uh, I, I vote it down. It's a no for me, dog. But-

Dan McClellan Yeah

Dan Beecher ... uh, but I can see that, like, I can see valid moral arguments being made-

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm

Dan Beecher ... for it. Uh, so it's just, so I, I think that's where we're at, is we've got another contentious issue that, uh, that the Bible says all the things about, and you get to de-

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm

Dan Beecher ... and, and your, you know... And so, yes, your bi- your biblical interpretation of the morality of capital punishment may go up against the biblical, uh, morality of someone else's opinion.

Dan McClellan And, and against the, the biblical morality of, of just a few verses earlier in the Bible-

Dan Beecher Yeah

Dan McClellan ... uh, as well, 'cause, 'cause one of... what I note about this, and they're like, "Look, that's the Noahide laws. That's, like, pre-Israel. That is the inviolable stuff." Um, but just a few verses earlier, it says, "Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And just as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything. Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood." So just a few verses earlier, it says you cannot eat blood, which is a message that got lost in transmission early on in the history of Christianity. 'Cause even the Book of Acts reaffirms that. Acts 15, after the Jerusalem Council, they said, "Okay, when it comes to Gentiles, you got four rules. Uh, and one of them is, uh, you don't consume blood."

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan And then Paul was like, "Eh, I don't really care about that." And, and so Christians don't care about that today. And it's like, okay, so, like, if, if you're saying the Bible says so, you reject two verses earlier-

Dan Beecher Right

Dan McClellan ... the Bi- what the Bible says there.

Dan Beecher Yeah. You're, you're-

Dan McClellan Nobody cares about that. You're, you're picking and choosing. But e- and, and you're ignoring the parts of the Bible that, that suggest maybe the death penalty is not the greatest thing. And, and so I, I think you just cannot... If you want to disagree with the Pope on ethical grounds, the Bible is off the table. You cannot say that the Bible shows the Pope is wrong.

Dan Beecher Right.

Dan McClellan Because, uh, unless you wanna just acknowledge, yeah, there... we, we can't really prohibit slavery, because the Bible's pretty clear about that, too.

Dan Beecher Yeah. I mean, I think-

Dan McClellan Um-

Dan Beecher ... I think the Bible does say the Pope is wrong, and the Bible says the Pope is right, and you get to... and it's a choose your own adventure, and that's just, uh, one of the fascinating things about this book.

Dan McClellan Mm-hmm.

Dan Beecher Well, that is some nutty stuff. Uh, don't go out there killing folks, everybody. That's, uh, that's the official take of the Data Over Dogma podcast. If you would like to become a part of, uh, making the Data Over Dogma podcast a thing, boy, we'd love for you to do so. You can go over to our, uh, to patreon.com/dataoverdogma, or if you want to, go check out our shiny new website at dataoverdogmapod.com. You can find a link to our, uh, our donation places there, but also a whole bunch of other cool stuff, including, uh, uh... What, what, what about, what do we got? We got a list of all the books that we talk about on the show. There's every episode's-

Dan McClellan That-

Dan Beecher ... transcription and everything

Dan McClellan ... searchable. You can go in and look for anything that we've ever said in any of the shows, and it'll pull it right up.

Dan Beecher Yeah. Uh, so that, it's a really cool thing. Go check that out. Uh, and that came to us thanks to our right-hand man, Sam Holden, who has been a, a tireless worker, and boy, do we appreciate him. Uh, thanks also to Roger Goudy for the editing of the show, and thanks to all of you for tuning in. We'll talk to you again next time.

Dan McClellan Bye, everybody.